Interview: The Mothers of Punch—Victoria Clark, Julie Hesmondhalgh, and the Real Joan Scourfield

“I’m a super fan of yours, Julie,” Victoria Clark exclaims before even saying a proper hello. “Your performance in Broadchurch blew my mind. It’s so textured and complex and your emotional life is so well-investigated. I thought ‘I want to meet this actress someday.’ So, here I am.”

Julie Hesmondhalgh, a staple of British television, is clearly flattered, and clearly having a parallel moment of awe. “Intimidated is not even the word,” she counters with a laugh. “I was like, “Oh, brilliant, you’ve got a double Tony-winner playing Joan on Broadway. Fantastic. That’s great.”

There’s a third person on our video chat: Joan Scourfield, whom Clark and Hesmondhalgh play, in productions on alternate sides of the Atlantic, of James Graham’s new drama Punch. Hesmondhaigh originated the role of Joan at the Nottingham Playhouse and Young Vic, and now portrays her in London’s West End. Clark picked up the baton for its Broadway premiere at Manhattan Theatre Club’s Samuel J. Friedman theatre.

Scourfield’s story, as told in Punch, is one of tragedy and grace. Her son, James Hodgkinson, was killed after a random act of violence, and she eventually found the inner strength to forgive his assailant, Jacob Dunne.

Both Clark and Hesmondhaigh are starry-eyed in each other’s presence, but even more so in Joan’s. And the admiration runs three ways.

This conversation has been condensed and edited for clarity.

Joan, when you found out a play was being written about the incident that took your son’s life and all that came after, what went through your mind?
Joan Scourfield: Well, I didn’t think it would go like it’s gone at all. Obviously, once Julie was on board, it made a big difference. Before that, I thought “Why would people come see it?” [Laughs] It didn’t freak me out, but I have to come because James isn’t here to look out for himself, so I have to see that James is portrayed fairly in all that’s done. Also, it’s just Wow. How has it gotten like this?

Julie and Vicki, tell me about reacting to the script from the first time.
Julie Hesmondhalgh: What I loved about it, apart from the beautiful human story at the center—which people still don’t really realize is a true story—is that this is Jacob’s story, based on his memoir, and I think that James does a wonderful job in explaining the structures and issues that make young men behave in the ways they do, from alcohol-related violence to gang culture to social architecture.

All those things feed into this, so there are no easy answers. It’s not goodies and baddies; it’s about how the criminal justice system really fails young men. That is why it’s so wonderful that Jacob and Joan are going into prisons and schools to talk about the issues of the play. Did you know, Vicki, that the producers, after they’ve recouped the investment, are putting all the money into educational work?

Victoria Clark: I didn’t, but it makes sense with the activism that’s been surrounding the show. We’re doing talkbacks here after performances and I wanted to talk to you about the original talking circle that was built in the courtyard at the Nottingham Playhouse.

Julie: It was a special installation that they put outside, but it only sat, I would say, probably 15-20 people.

Joan: Comfortably.

Julie: That night, hundreds of people came out of the theater and stood. We couldn’t believe it. And that’s been the case every time we’ve done any sort of after-show discussion. Usually, they’re like “Everybody move down to the front row.”

Victoria: And everybody looks at their watch and they scram.

Julie: People really felt the need to process what they had just seen, because the issue of forgiveness is a huge and thorny one. The thing I love about the Forgiveness Project, who are curating all our talkbacks, is that they’ve always said that it’s not a wafty thing, forgiveness. It takes something that is actually often lifesaving for the person who’s doing the forgiving, as well as the forgiven. Joan, obviously you can talk more about that.

Joan: It helps relieve the bitterness, forgiving does. And yeah, I can forgive Jacob for…he didn’t mean to kill James. You learn to live with that and forgive him for that. He punched James and that was wrong and that’s what he did his time for. But you learn to forgive to move on; if not, you’re in the bitterness. There’s a ripple effect on the families. The families have to learn to forgive, as well. It’s very hard. It’s not a little word. There’s a lot of depth to it, a lot of strength to it, and only the Forgiveness Project can really help you understand all of that.

Victoria: In rehearsals, we talked a lot about how forgiveness is often seen as something soft, or something that makes one feel warm and fuzzy, and only weak people do that kind of thing. You come to find out that forgiveness is gritty. Forgiveness is awkward. It’s tough. You have to be strong. A lot of work goes into forgiveness and into awkward conversations.

We had the blessing of having Joan and David and [the real facilitator] Nicola all come and we had a big talkback. When I came out to sit, I was like “Did anybody leave?” Six, seven hundred people probably stayed for this talk, which is really unusual.

Joan, what is your reaction to watching these two very different actresses portray you? I imagine its very strange for you to watch other people relive your lived experiences.
Joan: It is very surreal seeing yourself played on stage and hearing words you’ve actually said, and [watch] the time in your life that you’ve actually lived. I don’t know how they come on upset and then go back and come on not upset. I don’t know how they do it. Obviously, I lived it, so it’s very different seeing it, but I think they both act it very well. I take my hats off to both of them for the actual sense they put into it. It’s like they really are me.

Victoria: That brings tears to my eyes.

Julie: It don’t get better than that, Joan. Bloody hell.

Victoria: There’s so much passion behind this project. There are so few times in our lives where our craft gets to meet our personal beliefs. Sometimes we’re playing crazy people that have nothing to do with us personally, and those are fun, but to have the opportunity to tell a story that meets up with my own convictions is such a gift.

Julie: It’s a massively overused word, and I’m sick of myself saying it, to be honest, but it is a privilege. And it is an honor, and it is a responsibility. Joan came into this process a little bit later for us. Jacob was involved from the very beginning. When James met Joan and David, but particularly Joan, more and more of Joan has appeared in the play.

She’s really funny, and she’s very naughty, and she comes with this gaggle of sisters who are absolutely terrifying. There’s more to Joan than what has happened to her, and we couldn’t get a sense of that until we all met you. Those elements of Joan have been put in subsequently because of James seeing you, Joan. That has given it so much more. The stuff about James in the meeting scene came from your coming to a rehearsal. That was added very late on, actually.

Victoria: Are you saying that James went back and threaded the Joan and David story in?

Julie: Yeah.

Victoria: Oh, that’s great.

Julie: More and more scenes got put in. A very recent addition has been the post-sentence scene. Very late on in the process, everyone felt that we didn’t get enough chance to see Joan in the midst of all the bitterness and anger about the sentence and how unfair it felt. There is a world where it is just based on Jacob’s memoir and the audience don’t meet David and Joan until Jacob meets them.

Victoria: What’s so theatrical about what James has done is that it’s like two trains. You know they’re gonna collide at a certain point and the suspense builds to the meeting scene.

Julie: You can hear the silence every single time. It’s not a particular audience. People can barely breathe at the beginning of that scene.

Joan: People are definitely moved by it. You can hear a pin drop. People aren’t flicking their phones on to check the time or anything like that.

Joan, do you have any questions for your portrayers?
Joan: No, no. My big, huge thanks are to both of them for putting so much effort in. When you see it, you get the feel that they’re really into the story line, and I’m just so grateful to them both.